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Black Foal ?


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#1 Snidley Whiplash

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 08:48 PM

My month old foal (Filly) was born bay with light colored legs the light color on her legs is not white as she has 2 white socks. she had black around her eyes when she was born and as the baby fuzz comes off the black areas are getting larger. also at the top of her weithers it is turning black also and if you push her hair on her rump against the grain it is also black underneath



Her sire is black and her dam is a bay with black mane , tail, and legs. the sire is not homozyous (sp) for black, I have seen other foals by him and they are bay.



So my question would be can this foal be black or a black bay?



#2 Sandstone

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 08:51 PM

I've always felt that the haircolor around the eyes is the telltale sign. I bet she'll be black! What a treat!
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#3 Tracek

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:03 PM

Homozygous black simply means that a horse will not produce chestnut foals. H-Blacks can and do produce bay foals, depending on the mare they are bred to. If the stallion had chestnut foals, or a chestnut parent - then he would not be homozygous, but just because he has had bay foals does not rule out the possibility.

Your filly may be black, I guess there is also a possibility that she will be a very dark bay. Hard to tell without seeing her, time will tell for you. Post some photos if you can. A black filly - what a treat!


#4 Snidley Whiplash

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:02 PM

[][ quote name='Tracek' date='Sep 25 2006, 08:03 PM' post='208935'] Homozygous black simply means that a horse will not produce chestnut foals. H-Blacks can and do produce bay foals, depending on the mare they are bred to. If the stallion had chestnut foals, or a chestnut parent - then he would not be homozygous, but just because he has had bay foals does not rule out the possibility.

Your filly may be black, I guess there is also a possibility that she will be a very dark bay. Hard to tell without seeing her, time will tell for you. Post some photos if you can. A black filly - what a treat!
[/quote][attachmentid=24486] [attachmentid=24488][attachmentid=24490][attachmentid=24491] the first 2 are of her first day, the last 2 are at one month.



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#5 Fledgesflight

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:03 PM

QUOTE(Tracek @ Sep 26 2006, 12:03 PM) View Post

Homozygous black simply means that a horse will not produce chestnut foals. H-Blacks can and do produce bay foals, depending on the mare they are bred to.


Just want to add onto this: Homozygous Blacks can also be Bay-EEAa-EEAA -Never produce a Chestnut foal.
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#6 meddy75422

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:40 PM

QUOTE(Fledgesflight @ Sep 25 2006, 10:03 PM) View Post

Just want to add onto this: Homozygous Blacks can also be Bay-EEAa-EEAA -Never produce a Chestnut foal.

Some black foals are a mousy grey color when they are born. They turn black when they get their adult coat. I know, one of my mares had a black filly (by a dark bay stud and out of a bay mare) once. She was a funny color and I couldn't figure out what she was. I didn't expect a black, there were no blacks in her pedigree for generations. She didn't look bay or black, but she shedded out a true black. I bred her three times and her foals were also black. Marcia
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#7 Shan

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 11:56 PM

I would say she looks bay...she will probably be a black bay-My 2yo old was born like that. He is a very dark bay...if the horse has brown hairs on its muzzle, around the eyes/ears flanks legs but the rest of the body is black...then tech it's a bay...The 3 pic are of my 2004 geld. Although he looks like he could be black in his baby picture he's not. You can see the brown on his muzzle (Nov '05 pic) and the brown on his flank (2006 summer)...personally I think very dark bays are beautiful and one of my favorite colors for a horse. Very cute little filly...I like her shoulder!

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#8 Fledgesflight

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 12:06 AM

QUOTE(Fledgesflight @ Sep 26 2006, 01:03 PM) View Post

Just want to add onto this: Homozygous Blacks can also be Bay-EEAa-EEAA -Never produce a Chestnut foal.


after I re-read this, I realized that I should have been more specific.

What I should have said (to avoid any confusion from my first statement) is that Bay horses can also be Homozygous for Black. A Bay that is Homozygous for Black will either be EEAa or EEAA.
The Bay horse who is EEAa can only have Black or Bay foals. The Bay who is EEAA can only have Bay foals, as they have two copies of Agouti and will always pass on one copy of Agouti and one copy of Black to their offspring (Homozygous for Agouti and Homozygous for Black-sometimes called Homozygous Bays.)


Essentially a Bay horse is a Black horse, only that Bays have Agouti (which is a Modifier) altering the Black of their bodies to another colour- but Agouti will not affect their points (mane,tail,legs,ear tips ect) Agouti is AA or Aa. No Agouti is aa.True Black horses have no Agouti.

Thanks for letting me clear that up..

The foal is very cute!- I didn't see her pics before. It is hard to say what she may end up as, but for right now she appears Bay to me.

The foal colour Marcia referred to as "mousey grey" is very typical of a going-to-be Black foal.
But there have been a few "bay" looking ones go Black too- so I wouldn't rule it out just yet.

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#9 Rebecca J.

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:11 AM

I have seen a mousy filly go bay. Most of the mousy foals I've seen, go black. I think that the black with the bit of brown on the muzzle, flanks, ears, etc, is called the Pangere gene. They have the agouti gene, so will produce bays if bred. The one I had also produced a black for me. Mostly, however, if they are bay when born, they stay that way. However, the world is full of surprises, so you never know when one will come along!

#10 wyndski

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 11:15 AM

QUOTE

[attachmentid=24486] [attachmentid=24488][attachmentid=24490][attachmentid=24491] the first 2 are of her first day, the last 2 are at one month.


I will guess that she is going to be a black/bay. A filly out of my stallion (black/bay) and a black dam looked exactly like that. Hair under the foal coat even looked black but she shed out to a Very dark black bay.
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#11 Renee Boeshans

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:46 PM

HI, I had a bay colt turn black when he shed out. His sire was Black bay, Affirmativ, and his dam was a Chestnut daughter of the General! As an adult the gelding (now) is a non fading black! Most black foals are mousey gray when born.

#12 Snidley Whiplash

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 04:27 PM

Thank you all for the information about colors, I guess I will just keep my fingers crossed for black, although black bay will be ok too. thank you all.

#13 Black_Ice

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 09:39 PM

First off, she's adorable!! However, this filly is going to stay bay, she may be a bit darker than she is now, but she's not going to be either black bay or black.. but she's still gorgeous!

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#14 bjs

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:27 PM

Hi. I have a black homozygous colt that was born in 2004. Tuxedo Thyme ABA was born a smokey grey color so I had him tested via www.vetgen.com. They have a great website that talks about horse colors and the possible color combinations you can get with Arabians. To be homozygous they have to have one or two (of two) black genes. Tux has one black gene and one chestnut gene. He can guaranty a black foal but the mare must have both black genes for this to happen. However, he can also produce blacks from bays but the odds vary depending on the mare's gene pool. Both of Tux's parents are bay. In a nutshell, I don't think a bay foal will ever turn black (black bay perhaps) but twp bay's can produce a black. If you really want to know the gene makeup of your foal you can have her tested via a DNA test that is offered at this website. The cost for Tux was $50. Good luck!!

#15 Azure Arabians

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 04:36 PM

QUOTE(Fledgesflight @ Sep 25 2006, 10:06 PM) View Post

after I re-read this, I realized that I should have been more specific.

What I should have said (to avoid any confusion from my first statement) is that Bay horses can also be Homozygous for Black. A Bay that is Homozygous for Black will either be EEAa or EEAA.
The Bay horse who is EEAa can only have Black or Bay foals. The Bay who is EEAA can only have Bay foals, as they have two copies of Agouti and will always pass on one copy of Agouti and one copy of Black to their offspring (Homozygous for Agouti and Homozygous for Black-sometimes called Homozygous Bays.)
Essentially a Bay horse is a Black horse, only that Bays have Agouti (which is a Modifier) altering the Black of their bodies to another colour- but Agouti will not affect their points (mane,tail,legs,ear tips ect) Agouti is AA or Aa. No Agouti is aa.True Black horses have no Agouti.

Thanks for letting me clear that up..

The foal is very cute!- I didn't see her pics before. It is hard to say what she may end up as, but for right now she appears Bay to me.

The foal colour Marcia referred to as "mousey grey" is very typical of a going-to-be Black foal.
But there have been a few "bay" looking ones go Black too- so I wouldn't rule it out just yet.


Very True! although I havent had my stallion tested we think he is a bay that is homozygous black, He has had close to 30 foals and no chestnut, more so he is having about 25% blacks with out being bred to black mares. Those numbers also point to that he is probably homozygous black, as he should have 25% blacks and 75% bays bred to any color mare. If he is bred to black mares the odds would be 50%/50% black to bays from what I understand?

My stallion also throws alot of black bays and I have 4 myself. They all had coats like the filly in questions. The blacks I have had have all been a very distinctive mouse color. Cute fily!


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#16 Fledgesflight

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:36 PM

QUOTE(Azure Arabians @ Nov 2 2006, 08:36 AM) View Post

Very True! although I havent had my stallion tested we think he is a bay that is homozygous black, He has had close to 30 foals and no chestnut, more so he is having about 25% blacks with out being bred to black mares.

Yes, it does sound like he is def Homozygous for Black. Those odds that you've given are pretty text book odds for Homozygous Black, Hetrozygous Agouti (EEAa) : Coat Color Crossing Table

QUOTE

Those numbers also point to that he is probably homozygous black, as he should have 25% blacks and 75% bays bred to any color mare. If he is bred to black mares the odds would be 50%/50% black to bays from what I understand?

Not only will he sire 50% Black offspring from Black mares, but also 50% Black from Chestnut mares who carry no Agouti (eeaa:)
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