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Bloodlines For Western Performance Horses.


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#1 Marlin

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 02:27 AM

Which arabian bloodlines make the best western performance horse, CMK, Polish,
Eygptian, Russian, etc. By western performance I mean reining, cutting, roping,
working cow horses,and ranch horses. For most of these jobs a horse has to
have cow sense and athletic ability.
Marlin

#2 Paperbackwriter

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 03:24 AM

Xenophonn is probably the most famous Arab western performance horse, and his get are pretty good as well. Xenophonn is out of Bolero, a Witez II son (Polish), but his dam line is a mix. Like Khemosabe, he'd probably be best described as an "American bred" horse. His son Zee Mega Bucks is producing some really talented horses.

Desperado V produced some nice Western performance horses. He's primarily Polish, but with some CMK & Babson thrown in. Most people would simply classify him as "Varian Bred" <grin>

Al Mariah Arabians has produced some nice working Western horses (most of 'em pretty). Bazy Tinkersley, I belive (correct me people if I'm wrong) likes line breeding back to Raffles which should make her horses mostly CMK.

And I suppose no list of Western performance bloodlines would be complete without mentioning Khemosabe, who seems to have turned out an awful lot of useful horses in most fields of working horses -- marked them all with that "Khemosabe look" that you can see in even in the second and third generation. Khemosabe was CMK and Polish on top and Babson on the bottom.

I'm told that the thing you really want to look for is low set hocks, so the horse can get under himself. We're breeding a lot of long cannon bones (front and rear) and that interferes with performance.

If you want to go back a few years, Garaff (CMK) produced some nice working stock -- his bloodline was used by the folks at the Cross U Bar ranch in Wyoming (most of their horses have NA in their names).

Someone else have some more performance horses you like?

#3 Dick

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 11:34 AM

Polish Arabian horses have many proven lines in Working Western.

Dick Reed
Toskhara Arabians
7429 Grubbs Road
Aubrey, Texas 76227

#4 becca10204

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 03:53 PM

I like the Polish/CMK Arabian horses for westen.

#5 missmagus

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 09:41 PM

QUOTE(Marlin @ Jan 14 2007, 03:27 AM) View Post

Which arabian bloodlines make the best western performance horse, CMK, Polish,
Eygptian, Russian, etc. By western performance I mean reining, cutting, roping,
working cow horses,and ranch horses. For most of these jobs a horse has to
have cow sense and athletic ability.
Marlin


I have seen horses of all bloodlines succeed in Working Western so sometimes you just find a horse that you like and see if that one can succeed - no matter the bloodlines. Look for the right conformation (nothing refined too much, substance and bone with the right kind of neckset on the shoulder - nothing too high), the right attitude (quiet) and a real athlete (a very overused word but no other does the job).

I believe that there haven't been enough Arabs tried in Working Western yet to say definitively what bloodlines are the "best". Sometimes an individual has what people think are the best bloodlines - but the horse just isn't right.

"Cow sense" is something that most Arabs have - because Arabs are so smart they love to play and that's kind of what "cow sense" is - a horse that's curious enough to want to chase, track, play with a cow. They do this AFTER they get over being afraid of it!

Forgotten Lane Farm, Alvarado, Texas


#6 siiamese

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 07:14 PM

I have a nice young mare that would be a nice reiner - - maybe cutter (she is prone to herding her pasturemates relentlessly). Coming three year old, under saddle. We will aim her at the WP Futurity if she does not sell before then.

#7 Syd Barrett

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 12:19 AM

The July 2006 issue of Arabian Horse World had articles titled:
Zen and the Art of Western Pleasure - comments from trainers about Western Pleasure horses and training
Western Statistics - Lists of Top open and Junior Horses, WP, Reining, Working Cow, Trail, Top Sires
Western Division Profiles - Small articles about trainers and farms

#8 missmagus

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:25 AM

After being at Scottsdale for the third year in a row and watching the Purebred and Half Arab Reining Futurity - I come away with a very strong feeling that there is so much opportunity in the Purebred Futurity. I personally believe that you can throw out all the history of Reining with Purebreds and now start watching what is happening in that Futurity. I say throw out all the history because I do not believe you can take the results of, more than not, poor judging and say that those may be the best horses for this discipline. Now that the judges must be NRHA judges I believe that we will start to see the more believeable and better results with which to judge this discipline. This discipline which goes beyond breed lines - and will only get bigger. I hear there are going to be many opportunities coming up, in the near future, that our Purebreds and Half Arabs may have a showcase to perform in front of many many people - and not at Arab shows - but during Major NRHA shows.

I see an opportunity for breeders to try to perfect the Purebred Reiner - which will most likely take a number of generations - but it can be done. I have put a colt from our race breeding program (who has never raced) into the Purebred Reining Futurity in 08. He looks to be a good one - so we'll see - but watch for BIG CAT in next year's purebred Reining Futurity.
Forgotten Lane Farm, Alvarado, Texas


#9 CarrieLewis

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 05:35 PM

QUOTE(Marlin @ Jan 14 2007, 01:27 AM) View Post
Which arabian bloodlines make the best western performance horse, CMK, Polish,
Eygptian, Russian, etc. By western performance I mean reining, cutting, roping,
working cow horses,and ranch horses. For most of these jobs a horse has to
have cow sense and athletic ability.
Marlin


Without a doubt, the best western performance horses are American Foundation and Early American Foundation bloodlines.

Arabian Horses originally imported into North America were characteristic of the desert horse -- prized for their hardiness, substance, versatility, stamina, soundness, athletic ability and intelligence, without sacrifice of beauty and presence. These are the performance plus individuals - utilized in ranch/cattle work, reining, cutting, roping, working cow, over-land trail, a rancher's best partner and friend.

*Zarife, EAF


Ibn Skorage


Ibn Ur-Okai


Moneyna


Best regards
Carrie Lewis
AFAHA/TFAHA
Happy trails,
Carrie A. Woolverton
Triple Cross Ranches & Honey Creek Farms
http://www.honeycreekfarms.biz/

American Foundation Arabian Horses - The Original ATVs

Pulque Preservation Program
Texas Foundation Arabian Horse Association
American Foundation Arabian Horse Association

When age prevents me from riding,
I will still keep horses as long as
I can shuffle along with a pail.
When I can no longer shuffle,
I will roll my wheelchair to the pasture
Fence to watch my horses graze.

#10 CarrieLewis

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 05:47 PM

Early American Foundation Arabian horses working bloodlines - Performance Plus:

Quick Silver


Redlite


Riffles


Ronteza


Best regards
Carrie Lewis
AFAHA/TFAHA
Happy trails,
Carrie A. Woolverton
Triple Cross Ranches & Honey Creek Farms
http://www.honeycreekfarms.biz/

American Foundation Arabian Horses - The Original ATVs

Pulque Preservation Program
Texas Foundation Arabian Horse Association
American Foundation Arabian Horse Association

When age prevents me from riding,
I will still keep horses as long as
I can shuffle along with a pail.
When I can no longer shuffle,
I will roll my wheelchair to the pasture
Fence to watch my horses graze.

#11 montana

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 05:56 PM

Never forget Ronteza, a Witez II daughter, who beat all breeds to win the then-equivalent of Working Cow Horse at the San Francisco Cow palace. Sheila Varian's first claim to fame.

No question that the best of the old timers were CMK crossed on old Polish. *Witez II shows up in both Xenophonn and Ronteza.

Bazy's record speaks for iteself. For that matter, so does Dick's.

I anticipate Polish and old US Foundation lines will continue be your sources; that's where the body build and mindset is. The Russian stuff has the athleticism of the Polish/Crabbet blend too, so some potential there, possibly.

Zarife and the "old" Van Vleet stuff notwithstanding (if you can find it any more...) I'd suggest that modern Egyptian bloodlines will not be your best source.
"If you can remain calm when all around you are losing their heads, you obviously don't understand the situation!"

#12 CarrieLewis

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 06:01 PM

QUOTE(missmagus @ Mar 5 2007, 08:25 AM) View Post
I see an opportunity for breeders to try to perfect the Purebred Reiner - which will most likely take a number of generations - but it can be done.


It's already been perfected - in the Early American Foundation Arabian horse bloodlines.

Rumadi Rogue


Seynabaar


Shanad


Asil Dygnyty


Best regards
Carrie Lewis
AFAHA/TFAHA
Happy trails,
Carrie A. Woolverton
Triple Cross Ranches & Honey Creek Farms
http://www.honeycreekfarms.biz/

American Foundation Arabian Horses - The Original ATVs

Pulque Preservation Program
Texas Foundation Arabian Horse Association
American Foundation Arabian Horse Association

When age prevents me from riding,
I will still keep horses as long as
I can shuffle along with a pail.
When I can no longer shuffle,
I will roll my wheelchair to the pasture
Fence to watch my horses graze.

#13 CarrieLewis

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 06:17 PM

QUOTE(montana @ Mar 5 2007, 04:56 PM) View Post
Never forget Ronteza, a Witez II daughter, who beat all breeds to win the then-equivalent of Working Cow Horse at the San Francisco Cow palace. Sheila Varian's first claim to fame.

No question that the best of the old timers were CMK crossed on old Polish. *Witez II shows up in both Xenophonn and Ronteza.

I anticipate Polish and old US Foundation lines will continue be your sources; that's where the body build and mindset is.

Zarife and the "old" Van Vleet stuff notwithstanding (if you can find it any more...)


You must be reading my mind <g>!

The American Foundation Arabian Horse Association was formed several years ago to Preserve and Promote exactly these bloodlines - found in the United States by and before 1960 (such as *Zarife, Payne, Donoghue - the working champions of yesteryear. There are several breeders around the county (myself included) who are actively breeding these bloodlines to perpetuate the working traits found in the original Early American Arabian horses.

Ah, Ronteza ... wasn't she something?!!

More EAF Arabian horses:

Skorife


Gurroad


Al-Marah Zaibaq


Zaib


Best regards
Carrie Lewis
AFAHA/TFAHA
Happy trails,
Carrie A. Woolverton
Triple Cross Ranches & Honey Creek Farms
http://www.honeycreekfarms.biz/

American Foundation Arabian Horses - The Original ATVs

Pulque Preservation Program
Texas Foundation Arabian Horse Association
American Foundation Arabian Horse Association

When age prevents me from riding,
I will still keep horses as long as
I can shuffle along with a pail.
When I can no longer shuffle,
I will roll my wheelchair to the pasture
Fence to watch my horses graze.

#14 missmagus

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 10:25 PM

The horses you find in Reining will be somewhat different from the horses you'll find in Reined Cow Horses. The photos of the old reiners that have been posted are interesting, but the discipline has been refined so much more, and the horses that will succeed will have to be very quiet minded to be able to take the stress of the training, have the physical characteristics that will make it possible for the horses to accomplish what is asked of them. As I said - this years Purebred Reining was not real great - there is tremendous room for improvement.

The Reined Cow Horses will have a little more edge on them - when they change over from the Working Cow to Reined Cow rules - the horses will have to Rein, Cut, and Fence a cow. These horses will be able to have a little more edge on them than Reiners.

The Cutters are the edgiest - they are reactive and are extremely quick.

Hopefully there are people that are breeding toward these goals - I for one am breeding for Reining which I think will grow faster and be extremely competitive over the next 5-10 years and beyond.

The old horses are great - but we have to deal with modern day breeding with those kind of horses in the back ground. I for one am using excellent racing bloodlines. with quite a few outstanding old bloodlines -*Orzel, Touch of Magic, My Man, Blue Domino, Kontiki, Seneyn, Abu Farwa, Kinzi, Meteor, Sambor, Czort, Camelot - etc in a modern day version - a colt that is now in Reining training.
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#15 zhr.sporthorses

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 02:08 AM

QUOTE(missmagus @ Mar 5 2007, 09:25 PM) View Post
The old horses are great - but we have to deal with modern day breeding with those kind of horses in the back ground. I for one am using excellent racing bloodlines. with quite a few outstanding old bloodlines -*Orzel, Touch of Magic, My Man, Blue Domino, Kontiki, Seneyn, Abu Farwa, Kinzi, Meteor, Sambor, Czort, Camelot - etc in a modern day version - a colt that is now in Reining training.


Here is an example of a Khemosabi (2x) + *El Paso + American Foundation (and one line to an imported Egyptian racing stallion named *Refky). He has done pretty good in Working Cow and did a little Reining. He has earned some National titles:
2006 Arabian Working Cow Horse Champ TOP 10
2004 Arabian Reining Horse Champ TOP 10
2004 Arabian Working Cow Horse Champ TOP 10
2002 Arabian Trail Horse Champ TOP 10 (okay - no cows or reining patterns involved....) and he has numerous Regional Championships and Reserves. But my point is that he has the old Foundation blood combined with the Polish racing blood (plus a dash of Egyptian racing blood).

This photo was taken within his first few months of training. He is a small compact gelding named Khatch A Diamond+/ (barn name "Mighty Mouse"). He was always pretty quiet until you put him in front of a cow and then - hang on!




#16 missmagus

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 09:58 AM

In actuality - all Arabians have the old bloodlines back there. Just different old bloodlines.

I also want to ask everyone - and you don't have to answer here - have you ever been to a show where they are actually showing in Reining, Reined Cow Horse or Cutting (and it shouldn't be an Arab show as they are just coming into line with the rules used by the Organizations for those disciplines) to see the Reiners, Reined Cow Horses or Cutters. Those organizations would be the NRHA, NRCHA and the NCHA.

All Arabs and Half Arabs that show in Reining will soon be showing under the NRHA rules and NRHA judges. I don't know the exact timetable but it is coming. It is a good thing as these are educated judges that are consistent in their judging, unlike the judges served up by most Arab shows for the Reining classes.
Forgotten Lane Farm, Alvarado, Texas


#17 horsedoctor

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 10:45 AM

QUOTE(missmagus @ Mar 6 2007, 06:58 AM) View Post
In actuality - all Arabians have the old bloodlines back there. Just different old bloodlines.

I also want to ask everyone - and you don't have to answer here - have you ever been to a show where they are actually showing in Reining, Reined Cow Horse or Cutting (and it shouldn't be an Arab show as they are just coming into line with the rules used by the Organizations for those disciplines) to see the Reiners, Reined Cow Horses or Cutters. Those organizations would be the NRHA, NRCHA and the NCHA.

All Arabs and Half Arabs that show in Reining will soon be showing under the NRHA rules and NRHA judges. I don't know the exact timetable but it is coming. It is a good thing as these are educated judges that are consistent in their judging, unlike the judges served up by most Arab shows for the Reining classes.

Ditto that for the working cow horse classes. An NRCHA judge would make a huge difference. Might even pick the horse that knows a cow is in the arena.

#18 zhr.sporthorses

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 11:49 AM

QUOTE(horsedoctor @ Mar 6 2007, 09:45 AM) View Post
Ditto that for the working cow horse classes. An NRCHA judge would make a huge difference. Might even pick the horse that knows a cow is in the arena.


I had to snicker when I read this comment. One of my pet peaves is watching a "cow horse" being forced to chase the cow, head up , back hollowed, mouth open. What is that? I do love to see a true cow horse with its eye on the cow, ears pinned and rating that cow, knowing what is going on and doing his job. I've not had the pleasure of riding a horse like this since I was a teenager but my first mare was a working ranch (QH) mare and my oh my, could she stop and turn on a dime and if I was thinking it she almost did it before I asked her to. I can see why cutting and working cow and reining are such specialized sports.

There is a reining horse trainer in my area and sometimes I go to his arena just to watch him train (all QH's). He owns a Rooster son, a small horse and is like poetry in motion. That boy can also cut a cow.... sigh.... but is not competing with cattle; he has had a few sons of HDI there too. I love them all, but it is really exciting to see an Arabian or Half Arabian do it that really knows what they are doing.

I think getting the NRHA, NCHA and NRCHA judges involved would be the best thing to establish credibility for the Arabian working western horse and seperate the 'can do' horses from the ones that 'get by'. Yup, that will bring the cream to the top :)


#19 flyway

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 03:39 PM

If anyone is interested I have two mares for sale. Vallejo Chanel is a very athletic daughter of Cytrina (Cytrys). Cytrina has produced several Working Cowhorse and Cutting National Champions. Chanel has been show WP and Halter and is currently in foal to Mirage V, Champion Working Cow and WP. This baby should be very pretty and very athletic. The other mare is Fol Moon. She is a Half Arabian by Rohara Moon Storm and out of a QH mare. She is five and was 2006 Reserve National Champion HA Working Cow, Junior horse. She was also a top ten HA WP Futurity in 2005, and a Nationals finalist in HA WP AAOTR 18-39 in 2006. Yes, we showed her in Amateur WP and Junior Working Cow at the national level simultaneously, and she was only four. Photos of both at http://www.sparagows.../1/@ATHEY_2_06/

#20 missmagus

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 03:46 PM

QUOTE(zhr.sporthorses @ Mar 6 2007, 12:49 PM) View Post
II think getting the NRHA, NCHA and NRCHA judges involved would be the best thing to establish credibility for the Arabian working western horse and seperate the 'can do' horses from the ones that 'get by'. Yup, that will bring the cream to the top :)


Absolutely!

I've been asked many times recently regarding what purebred sires I think will be the Reining sires of the future - and this would go for the Reined Cow Horses as well - but I have to tell folks that "the jury is out". Because of the way the horses in these disciplines have been judged over the years - very poorly in my estimation - and because it hadn't gotten a large amount of participation - I'd say there is no way to know on these two disciplines. I say take your horses put them with "a professional" in whichever discipline you want to have your horse tried in. Listen to what that professional is telling you after they've had the horse a fair amount of time. If the professional likes him/her - by all means show that horse.

I also agree - the Reined Cow Horses (previously known as the Working Cow Horses) that I have watched in shows around the country - these are Arabs I'm talking about - all seem to be looking elsewhere - never looking at the cows. They are pulled and tugged to follow that cow and do what has to be done - and most never look at the cow. Another pet peeve is that these horses aren't taught to break quickly into a gallop to chase the cow. I see so many Arabs spinning their wheels and have to really catch up - even in a small arena - to catch a cow. The good horses have to have the ability to get away fast when that cow breaks. If they can't it's a waste of time. Imagine if that were out in the open, not in a small arena, and the cow was constantly getting away. You wouldn't keep riding that horse.


Forgotten Lane Farm, Alvarado, Texas





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