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#1 JusticeBroker

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 10:32 PM

Hi everyone! I am not intending to speak ill of the departed or start a blowup.gif war.... [which is why I thought it was better to post in Research forum] But I am interested in hearing your thoughts on his get as performance horses. I know that is not the popular conception of his get, but I was looking at his pedigree again the other day and to my knowledge its looks like there is some 'ride' in his pedigree. Thoughts?
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#2 RousseauRidge

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:08 AM

I have a Bey Shah & he is wonderful under saddle. He also has Khemo blood, though.
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#3 brsflirt

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE(JusticeBroker @ Apr 27 2005, 11:32 PM)
Hi everyone! I am not intending to speak ill of the departed or start a  blowup.gif  war.... [which is why I thought it was better to post in Research forum] But I am interested in hearing your thoughts on his get as performance horses. I know that is not the popular conception of his get, but I was looking at his pedigree again the other day and to my knowledge its looks like there is some 'ride' in his pedigree. Thoughts?

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I had (just sold him) a double Bey Shah grandson, wonderful smooth gaits, but it took until he was 8 years old for him to get any sense, and not be afraid of everything. When he was 4 he was with a reining trainer and he thought it would be a nice change from the ring to take him on a trail ride. Ended up with broken ribs for his trouble. I had him from 4 months old. He is doing great now (at 9) and won a dressage class at a local show the first time to a show in 5 years, previously he had always freaked out at the shows. I think he took super long to mature. I do know people who have single cross that seem to have it together better.


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#4 sassifilli

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:56 AM

I believe that Corey Soltau took Bey Teyna and others on trails in the mountains/hills.


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#5 mtcowgirl

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 11:31 AM

Beh Teyna was a Tevis Cup competitor and has a photo crossing the ridge that was published in all mags to prove it. I know that our Egyptians crossed on Bey Shah granddaughters has been fantastic for athleticism and smarts. They jump, rein, work cattle fantastically, trail with confidence and are smooth as glass.

I think that the horse that is only exposed to the extemely controlled situation of arenas for training and work are of course going to freak, potentially, when taken into the open and unrestricted setting of trail rides, open space and no structure. Remember horses are smart, how many of us have horses who react to the ring stewards directions before we even think to cue? The more time spent in that environment the more that is their perception of life as a horse. Take any of us out of what we know and we will react in some manner. Horses who have had traditional training are not always rewarded for working through a situation vs being punished into the desired behavior. Also smart horses are often smarter than the humans dealing with them, again Arabs of all lines are smart. The breeding behind Bey Shah has some of the best performance horses to be found in any pedigree, horses noted for willingness and smarts who had handlers who knew how to capitalize and work with those attributes. With most horses and certainly evey Arabian I have ever met it has been the human element that has determined how the horse dealt with change and new experiences.

I can honestly say that in the 200 and some horses I have had the opportunity to work with it has ALWAYS been my problem in communicating and being a trustworthy leader that has been the problem and not the horse that has been trying to teach me a few things. I have had so many "crazy" horses, often Arabians brought in for fixing and within a day or two it is obvious that the horse has huge people problems. My Bey Shah granddaugther was started by a gal who worked for us,briefly it turns out, at 3 who wanted to "join up" with her in the round pen. My mare had been joined up since birth, hello she is a Arab, anyway by time I caught on to what was going on I had a mare whose faith in herself was shattered. I put her out to pasture and to play with me for a year and when I started her from scratch we had a year of only friendly stuff going on and she learned so fast that in a week she was where many are at a month. Was the Bey Shah part of her being what some would call hot and what I would call smart? What mattered was she needed someone willing to work with her instead of expect her to accept what they wanted when they wanted without any good communication to her about the purpose.

Bey Shah as an outcross to any line seems to have worked very well but the Bey Shah to Bey Shah might be a bit too much attitude and smarts.

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#6 stormyknight

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 03:57 PM

I've got a Bey Shah great-grandson and boy is he a spitfire! Not in a bad way neccessarily, but Lord help me if I don't keep him entertained. :) I've done some reading up on Bey Shah and my guy reminds me very much of him - every move is calculated, he's ALWAYS thinking (which can make him hard to deal with at times), sharp as a tack, and he definitely has an attitude. I can show him something once and he is convinced he's got it - if I show him again, he gets insulted as if I mistook him for an idiot. Even as a three year old gelding, he has "his" mares.

But he is very sweet to someone he knows - takes him a while to warm up to you, but once he does, then you are "okay". He could probably be a CP horse - the boy has a heck of a motor in the back end! But he doesn't have the natural head carriage to do it well.

I've heard a lot of bad things about Bey Shah breds (of course after I bought my guy), but I'd take another one again. :)

#7 gogetter

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 04:28 PM

I've been around several Bey Shah bred horses and they are all very timid, quite whimpy, actually. Definitely beautiful horses, but they really need a rider they can have confidence in. Oh, and those club feet. That alone will make me stay away from anything Bey Shah as far as breeding goes. I'd take a show gelding though, they are definitely big and beautiful.
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#8 IreneA

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:02 PM

I have watched the statistics in the magazines for some time, and usually you see Bey Shah ranking pretty high on the leading sires of Halter & performance winners lists. He has a lot of offspring that have won under saddle and at the national level. Also, not all Bey Shah offspring are club footed. We have two Bey Shah get and neither is club footed (and for that matter we have bred them together several times and none of the resulting foals are club footed). In fact our vet was out today (and he's worked at some of the big time arab farms) to work on one of the double Bey Shah+ granddaughters and absolutely fell in love with her. Said she was very hard to fault and great to work on, he loved her disposition.

People like to knock the Bey Shah horses but like any stallion, he has his good and bad offspring. We love the dispositions on our Bey Shah horses. Our Bey Shah daughter is super sweet and gentle and easy to handle. She was never broke to ride but is the type of horse I can just jump on with only a halter and walk around on.

The Bey Shah horses are great producers as well. Many of the leading stallions of today made their mark with foals out of Bey Shah daughters.

That said, there are some Bey Shah horses out there you couldn't give me. Like all lines of horses, you have to pick and choose the good ones.
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#9 twarab

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:26 PM

I don't think it was Bey Teyna that did the Tevis. I believe it was her full sister, Bey Sonya. Bey Teyna is broke to ride, though. Sonya was also a Halter Champion and won in Hunter Pleasure.

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#10 brsflirt

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 09:20 PM

QUOTE(mtcowgirl @ Apr 28 2005, 12:31 PM)

Bey Shah as an outcross to any line seems to have worked very well but the Bey Shah to Bey Shah might be a bit too much attitude and smarts.

mtcowgirl

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Amen sister!
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#11 brsflirt

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 09:26 PM

QUOTE(gogetter @ Apr 28 2005, 05:28 PM)
I've been around several Bey Shah bred horses and they are all very timid, quite whimpy, actually. Definitely beautiful horses, but they really need a rider they can have confidence in. 

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That is what I found as well, but smart as well. I found mine (who was a double grandson) to be very slow to mature and loose the timid factor, mine acted like a unbroke 3 year old until 8. But with the right rider he does very well. He ws very pretty lots of white on face and legs.
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#12 RousseauRidge

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 10:08 PM

QUOTE(brsflirt @ Apr 28 2005, 09:20 PM)
Amen sister!

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LOL, don't you know it! cowboybuck.gif
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#13 LauraM

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 10:27 AM

Bey Shah was certainly bred to be a performance horse and had good english bloodlines but I dont recall many if any horses that were successful in any of the english disciplines. It is too bad that they remove deceased stallions from the progeny listings on the AHA website because it was an easy way where the wins were from a stallion. If someone wanted to go through the effort to go through his progency list I would be very surprised if they found that he was a successful sire of performance horses, the occassional top performer aside.

Personally when I see Bey Shah in a pedigree, I am turned off by it due to bad legs, club feet and attitude issues. I say him several times up close and personal and I was not impressed but to each his own I always say.



#14 brsflirt

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 04:05 PM

QUOTE(RousseauRidge @ Apr 28 2005, 11:08 PM)
LOL, don't you know it!  cowboybuck.gif

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Well you know of whom I speak....think you tried to ride him while you were here, once. He is doing good now and his new owner loves him. Of course the double swirl on his forhead should have been a tip off. Followed by the fact that after he was delivered to the farm it took 6 hours to coax him out of his stall. He does do reining manuvers well, if he is in the right frame of mind.


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#15 RousseauRidge

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 04:52 PM

He was a good boy for me when I rode, but I remember one time I went to long line him & Clair came out & he lost it!
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#16 IreneA

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 06:27 PM

QUOTE(LauraM @ Apr 29 2005, 07:27 AM)
It is too bad that they remove deceased stallions from the progeny listings on the AHA website because it was an easy way where the wins were from a stallion.  If someone wanted to go through the effort to go through his progency list I would be very surprised if they found that he was a successful sire of performance horses, the occassional top performer aside. 

Personally when I see Bey Shah in a pedigree, I am turned off by it due to bad legs, club feet and attitude issues.  I say him several times up close and personal and I was not impressed but to each his own I always say.

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It is too bad they remove deceased stallions from the AHA site as I think you would be surprised by how many performance winners Bey Shah had. I remember a few years ago one of the researchers on another forum did some research on it and there were a number of National performance winners by Bey Shah+ (he had a pretty decent percentage of National winners per his total offspring compared to other stallions and much better than some other popular stallions such as *Ali Jamaal who never seems to get the same kind of ragging as Bey Shah+). He has had some Country English winners (and probably English winners also) although the names escape me at the moment. I do know that Beau's full brother Noyz has won in Country English. However, why is English the be all and end all of performance anyway? I'm always just as impressed with horses that win in Hunter or Western pleasure, etc. Sometimes more impressed as usually the classes are bigger with more competition.

Another thing to keep in mind with certain stallions like Bey Shah+ (and for that matter *Ali Jamaal) is when they become popular as "halter" sires that people often breed to them for halter horses and have no interest in showing the horses in performance. Many of these horses never have a chance to compete under saddle. We tried to get Beau out under saddle but unfortunately due to our concerns about the injury he had as a two year old, and financial considerations, it just was not possible. Our old Bey Shah+ daughter would have made a fabulous performance horse if she'd ever had a chance. But she's another one that was shown halter and then retired to the broodmare band. You couldn't find a horse with a better disposition than her, not to mention how athletic she is. People who see video of her are always amazed at what an incredible mover she is.

Personally there are some lines I prefer more than others but I would never make statements that I'm turned off of an entire line because of certain things I dislike about some of the horses in that line. There are good and bad horses in every line and if you avoid entire lines of horses you run the risk of missing out on some great horses.

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#17 gogetter

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 09:11 PM

QUOTE(IreneA @ Apr 29 2005, 07:27 PM)
It is too bad they remove deceased stallions from the AHA site as I think you would be surprised by how many performance winners Bey Shah had. 

Another thing to keep in mind with certain stallions like Bey Shah+ (and for that matter *Ali Jamaal) is when they become popular as "halter" sires that people often breed to them for halter horses and have no interest in showing the horses in performance. 
Personally there are some lines I prefer more than others but I would never make statements that I'm turned off of an entire line because of certain things I dislike about some of the horses in that line.  There are good and bad horses in every line and if you avoid entire lines of horses you run the risk of missing out on some great horses.

Irene

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Are you looking at the progeny reports for sweeps nominated sires? Because there are deceased stallions on there. I recently looked up *An Malik, like maybe a month ago.

Irene, your 2nd point is very true.

As far as being turned off from an entire line, I guess there are certain faults that some of us just won't tolerate. You're right, there are good and bad in all lines. My problem is I've seen the bad feet in generation after generation, with a few good feet thrown in. A certain Bey Shah grandson throws so many club feet it's horrifying, and yet they are winning in the halter arena because they are definitely big and beautiful. I've heard about trainability issues, but what I've heard doesn't correspond with what I've witnessed. They just take a very gentle hand, and that's not a bad trait in my mind! I just wouldn't purposefully breed to the Bey Shah lines, doesn't mean they're not beautiful horses. They really are! Just not for my mare.
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2011 Region 1 Champion PB Hunter Pleasure AATR
2011 Region 2 Reserve Champ PB Hunter Pleasure AAOTR
2010 Region 1 Top Three PB Hunter Pleasure AATR 40+
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#18 Blue Domino

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 01:18 AM

I just went over to AHA data source, and looked up Bey Shah's offspring, all nine hundred and eighty three are listed there for all to see, and their accomplishments too. I'm sure there are plenty of performance horses in there, though I don't have the inclination to do any research.

am currently looking at a local stallion, grandson of Bey Shah, by Shah Azim, he's absolutely magnificent, has no show record, but his full brother has a steller performance record. Also saw daughters of Shah Azim, and many offspring of the stallion I'm looking at. All seemed to be of nice disposition, and didn't see a club foot in the whole lot, (some line bred to Bey Shah also)

I was quite impressed to learn that the Emperor of Japan has acquired a son of Shah Azzim to breed to one of his mares, hear he was pretty particular about conformation. Looked at a few of the progeny of Shah Azim's on data source, lots of performance class wins there.

If Bey Shah line is good enough for the Emperor of Japan, I would think there are some mighty fine horses in that line.

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#19 Azure Arabians

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 09:25 PM

I thnk there is a reason Shah Azim is still standing and his offspring are still in the riing. That is one of the bey shahs I would use. Now Fame was also a good sire, I dont here about his babies haveing bad dispositions or leg problems. There are good and bad in every line.
Have only seen one of by your boy Irene so I cant comment there;) Although I remember liking him.
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#20 LauraM

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:42 AM

I think we may be talking about a different stallion listing. I do not see Bey Shah in AHA's (not the Data Source) Progeny Show Record for Sweepstakes nominated stallions. This listing gives you all of the horses by a stallion that have been shown and the totals by division of achievement award points and is a valuable snapshot of what kind of horses a stallion is producing. For example, Magnum Psyche as of last week had 372 offspring shown that had a total of 3324 points, none of which were in English, Park or Driving and 14 were in Country English Pleasure. None of his HA progeny had any performance points of any kind. If someone was looking for a stallion to use to breed an english horse, this information would be very valuable. It is not available for Bey Shah or we could see the facts as to his ability as a sire of performance horses. I have been lobbying AHA to keep deceased stallions on the list but so far they seem to remove them once they know the horse is gone.

My comment about English horses was based on the fact that on pedigree alone he should have produced english horses.

My opinion stands and I would never use him in my breeding program.

Laura




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