Jump to content


Photo

Homozygous Black To Chestnut


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#1 JennyM

JennyM

    Welcome to Taj ma Murf!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1632 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Princeton, Texas (45 miles north of Dallas)

Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:32 PM

I have a dark liver chestnut mare, by a grey, out of a bay. If I breed her to a homozygous black, what might I get?

I can send off mane hairs for an Agouti test, if it would make any difference.

Her only foal so far, is a dark chocolate palomino, by a palomino.

I'm figuring it's a 75% bay, 25% black possibility?

Jen M
Executive Assistant to Murf and Vanna

Godspeed, Pavielle! Thank you for letting me be a part of your life!

#2 JennyM

JennyM

    Welcome to Taj ma Murf!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1632 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Princeton, Texas (45 miles north of Dallas)

Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:37 PM

And, while I'm at it...how about a grey mare (Prince Fa Moniet x SF Khala Zahra) to a homozygous black.

When SF Khala Zahra was bred to Masada el Fahim, she produced the homozygous black Masada el Shahwan.

Might I get lucky and get black?



#3 Dick

Dick

    Advanced Member

  • Ablackhorse AHA
  • 7945 posts
  • Location:Aubrey, Texas
  • Interests:Arabian Horses, Photography, Computers

Posted 03 February 2006 - 05:07 PM

QUOTE
I have a dark liver chestnut mare, by a grey, out of a bay. If I breed her to a homozygous black, what might I get?

I can send off mane hairs for an Agouti test, if it would make any difference.


homozygous black is gg BB aa.

a chesnut is gg bb and can be aa, aA or AA. It is definitely worthwhile to test the mare for the Agouti gene as this will determine what your odds are.

If aa then 100% black
If aA than 50% black
If AA than 100% bay
Dick Reed
Toskhara Arabians
7429 Grubbs Road
Aubrey, Texas 76227

#4 Dick

Dick

    Advanced Member

  • Ablackhorse AHA
  • 7945 posts
  • Location:Aubrey, Texas
  • Interests:Arabian Horses, Photography, Computers

Posted 03 February 2006 - 05:11 PM

QUOTE
And, while I'm at it...how about a grey mare (Prince Fa Moniet x SF Khala Zahra) to a homozygous black.


It would help answer your question if you would provide:

color of mare
birth color of mare before she turned grey
color of foals by mare

color of sire
color of foals by sire

color of dam
color of foals by dam (you provided one)

The trick in all this is to develop the best guess gene map on the mare. It is then easy to give the odds on the color of the foals.
Dick Reed
Toskhara Arabians
7429 Grubbs Road
Aubrey, Texas 76227

#5 JennyM

JennyM

    Welcome to Taj ma Murf!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1632 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Princeton, Texas (45 miles north of Dallas)

Posted 03 February 2006 - 06:51 PM

QUOTE(Dick @ Feb 3 2006, 04:11 PM)
It would help answer your question if you would provide:

color of mare
birth color of mare before she turned grey
color of foals by mare

color of sire
color of foals by sire

color of dam
color of foals by dam (you provided one)

The trick in all this is to develop the best guess gene map on the mare.  It is then easy to give the odds on the color of the foals.

View Post



Hi Dick,

Hope you enjoyed this morning's gift of rain!!

She is CA Tutu Zahra...I don't have Datasource, and only recently reacquired her.

Thanks for your help! And I'm sending off the test tomorrow for the chestnut mare.

Jen

#6 brsflirt

brsflirt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 695 posts
  • Location:Louisville, KY
  • Interests:Arabian and Half Arabian sport horses, Jack Russell Terrorists, My husband and my children

Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:34 AM

Dick would you mind looking at this one...

Grey Trakhner mare born chestnut (although one set of papers I have say she was born bay) her sire is Grey... I'm not sure of color of dam

one foal sired by a dark bay...black

stallion bay sire of stallion is chestnut dam is bay

he has sired bay, chestnut, and Grey



Breezy Ridge South
Arabian Sport Horses

#7 maigray

maigray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 949 posts

Posted 05 February 2006 - 03:25 PM

I can try and answer, as it looks like Dick hasn't seen this yet;

QUOTE
Grey Trakhner mare born chestnut (although one set of papers I have say she was born bay) her sire is Grey... I'm not sure of color of dam

one foal sired by a dark bay...black

stallion bay sire of stallion is chestnut dam is bay

he has sired bay, chestnut, and Grey


If the mare is chestnut under grey, then here are the percentages;

The foal will have a 50% of grey no matter the base color.

There will be a 25% chance of chestnut and a 25% chance of a black based foal (black or bay).

IF the stallion is homozygous for agouti no chance of a black foal, only a bay.

IF the stallion is heterozygous for bay and the mare does not carry agouti, there is a 12.5% chance of bay and a 12.5% chance of black.

IF the stallion is heterozygous for agouti and the mare is also heterozygous for agouti, there is an 18.75% chance of bay and a 6.25% chance of black.


JennyM,

If the mare has 2 grey parents, she may be homozygous grey and will throw grey foals 100% of the time. If not, she will always have a 50% chance of throwing grey foals. There is no way to test for grey, but you can test for her base color.

If she is a chestnut under grey and carries no agouti, she will throw only;
50% blacks
50% blacks under grey .

If she carries agouti, and is heterozygous for it, chances are;
25% chance of black
25% chance of bay
50% chance of grey over either of those base coats.

If she is homozygous agouti, it's;
50% chance of bay
50% bay under grey.

If she is bay under grey, homozgyous for agouti, you will get;
50% chance of bay
50% chance of bay under grey

or, if she is heterozygous for agouti, it's;

25% chance of bay
25% chance of black
50% chance of grey over either base

If she is black under grey;
50% of black
50% of black under grey

M
I know great horses live again
~ Stanley Harrison

#8 brsflirt

brsflirt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 695 posts
  • Location:Louisville, KY
  • Interests:Arabian and Half Arabian sport horses, Jack Russell Terrorists, My husband and my children

Posted 05 February 2006 - 03:39 PM

maigray,

Thank-you for your reply.....one more question based on this

"IF the stallion is homozygous for agouti no chance of a black foal, only a bay.

IF the stallion is heterozygous for bay and the mare does not carry agouti, there is a 12.5% chance of bay and a 12.5% chance of black.

IF the stallion is heterozygous for agouti and the mare is also heterozygous for agouti, there is an 18.75% chance of bay and a 6.25% chance of black."

are there tests for agouti? or to determine heterozygous or homozygous for the bay.....

Breezy Ridge South
Arabian Sport Horses

#9 Stanislav

Stanislav

    Advanced Member

  • Equipac Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 561 posts
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 05 February 2006 - 03:46 PM

UC Davis can run those tests for you. http://www.vgl.ucdav...lor.html#agouti
Darcy Safin
Home of *Stanislav (*Mag x *Statistika)
Breeding a few good sporthorses in the quiet corner of Connecticut.

#10 brsflirt

brsflirt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 695 posts
  • Location:Louisville, KY
  • Interests:Arabian and Half Arabian sport horses, Jack Russell Terrorists, My husband and my children

Posted 05 February 2006 - 04:14 PM

thank you Stanislav... now I just need to decide if I want to have the tests run or just sit back and see what I get......


Breezy Ridge South
Arabian Sport Horses

#11 mtim1

mtim1

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 62 posts

Posted 05 February 2006 - 05:26 PM

QUOTE
Hope you enjoyed this morning's gift of rain!!

She is CA Tutu Zahra...I don't have Datasource, and only recently reacquired her.

Thanks for your help! And I'm sending off the test tomorrow for the chestnut mare.

Jen


Hey Jen, I checked Datasource. She has 3 registered get, all grey, all by non-grey sires. From the stats, I'm leaning homozygous grey for her.

All the best,
Mark Timson
Tulsa, OK



#12 JennyM

JennyM

    Welcome to Taj ma Murf!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1632 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Princeton, Texas (45 miles north of Dallas)

Posted 06 February 2006 - 12:08 AM

QUOTE(mtim1 @ Feb 5 2006, 04:26 PM)
Hey Jen,  I checked Datasource.  She has 3 registered get, all grey, all by non-grey sires.  From the stats, I'm leaning homozygous grey for her.

All the best,
Mark Timson
Tulsa, OK

View Post



Thanks Mark! I was going to say I was partial to greys, but if that's the case, how do I explain my palomino filly I selectively bred for ;-)

I think I'll still go with the stallion choice, at least for this go round. Sort of apprehensive of spending a lot of $ with AI and transported semen this year. If she takes quickly with her young lover live cover (say that 3x fast!!), I'll think farther out of the box in 2007.

You all are the best, and I'm thankful for your input!!
Jen M
Executive Assistant to Murf and Vanna

Godspeed, Pavielle! Thank you for letting me be a part of your life!

#13 Carmen

Carmen

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 369 posts
  • Location:Maryland
  • Interests:Breeding, raising, showing PB and Partbred Sporthorses. <br />Standing the PurePolish Stallion Wyndikayt (Goliat X Weltawa PASB)<br />

Posted 06 February 2006 - 08:22 AM

I have a very interesting mare. Polish, born chestnut, (registered chestnut) sire chestnut son of Bask. Dam grey, by bay stallion out of grey mare. My mare is black. Or at the very least a black liver. Muzzle's black, hair on body is black, ears are black, mane and tail is black. I don't understand these genetics.
She has had 5 foals

bay by bay
black by bay
bay tobiano by chestnut tobiano
2 black tobianos by chestnut tobiano


Debra
Excellent Bloodlines, producing excellent foals

#14 thenightrider

thenightrider

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 06 February 2006 - 10:21 AM

still learning...I have read & reread this a few times.

I have picked out a stallion and a mare who are both black, and want to buy a foal from these two (they would be bred this year). I am still working on getting this foal. The owner thinks I should wait until the foal is born.

the stallion is homozygous and has 23 lines to black in extended pedigree. The mare has not been tested but has 26 lines to black in extended pedigree. Color is not the MOST important, but it sure would be nice. What do you think my chances are of NOT getting a black?

Appreciate the input.


#15 maigray

maigray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 949 posts

Posted 06 February 2006 - 01:17 PM

QUOTE
I have a very interesting mare. Polish, born chestnut, (registered chestnut) sire chestnut son of Bask. Dam grey, by bay stallion out of grey mare. My mare is black. Or at the very least a black liver. Muzzle's black, hair on body is black, ears are black, mane and tail is black. I don't understand these genetics.
She has had 5 foals

bay by bay
black by bay
bay tobiano by chestnut tobiano
2 black tobianos by chestnut tobiano



Well, your mare is definitely not a chestnut. Her foal production record proves this, as 2 chestnuts cannot produce a black or black based (brown/bay) foal. So, from your description, she's probably black.


QUOTE
still learning...I have read & reread this a few times.

I have picked out a stallion and a mare who are both black, and want to buy a foal from these two (they would be bred this year). I am still working on getting this foal. The owner thinks I should wait until the foal is born.

the stallion is homozygous and has 23 lines to black in extended pedigree. The mare has not been tested but has 26 lines to black in extended pedigree. Color is not the MOST important, but it sure would be nice. What do you think my chances are of NOT getting a black?

Appreciate the input.


As long as the mare is truly black, you are guaranteed a black foal.

M
I know great horses live again
~ Stanley Harrison

#16 tiamiamel

tiamiamel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 06 February 2006 - 02:59 PM

Okay ya'll, I have a bay stallion that has produced chestnut, black, bay, buckskin(out of palomino, so thats where the cream gene came from) and grey(out of, of course grey mares)- he will be breeding a grey(NOT homozygous and possibly black at birth, has produced bay when bred to a bay) mare this spring. So I am thinking this is a crap shoot- don't 'cha think? I would be tickled to get either bay or black filly, but you gets what you gets- I am just hoping for a foal! Stallion is 20 and the mare 18. Wish me luck!

#17 thenightrider

thenightrider

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 06 February 2006 - 03:42 PM

Thank you Maigray.
The mare is definitely black with black parents. Very pretty and tall straight Egyptian.

I know that last year the stallion was bred to 5 gray mares and had 2 blacks, 2 bays and a gray foal. I guess it's the mare that decides the color. I have a lot to learn
thanks!


#18 maigray

maigray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 949 posts

Posted 06 February 2006 - 03:42 PM

Tiamiamel,

If the mare's true black under grey, it'll be;

an 18.75- 25% chance of bay
an 18.75 - 25% chance of black
a very small chance of chestnut (12.5%)
a 50% chance of grey

M

I know great horses live again
~ Stanley Harrison

#19 maigray

maigray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 949 posts

Posted 06 February 2006 - 03:50 PM

QUOTE
Thank you Maigray.
The mare is definitely black with black parents. Very pretty and tall straight Egyptian.


You're welcome.

QUOTE
I know that last year the stallion was bred to 5 gray mares and had 2 blacks, 2 bays and a gray foal. I guess it's the mare that decides the color. I have a lot to learn
thanks!


No, both parents usually decide the color, though in this particular case, you're not wrong to think the mares are the ones who are giving the foals non-black genes.

If the stallion in question managed 2 blacks out of 5 greys, those are good results. That he managed 4 non-greys out of 5 greys is very good odds. Every single one could have easily been grey, or at the very least non-black.

I'd be happy to give you a quick rundown on the genetics, but I'm not sure that's what you're really looking for. This site - www.equinecolor.com - can explain most of the ins and outs of horse color and they also have a forum you can ask questions on.

M

I know great horses live again
~ Stanley Harrison

#20 Coralie

Coralie

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 86 posts
  • Location:BONNEBOSQ 14 France

Posted 07 February 2006 - 06:21 AM

Hello all !!

Can you think it's possible to have a homozygous black foal, if he have one parent chestnut ?!!! (the second black homozygous)

Thank you !




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users