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#21 Garianne

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:28 AM

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation about the Muniqui, Menaghy and all the variations on spellings. Probably one of the greatest of this strain in Crabbet was *Ferda from whom so many incredible horses descend-Farana, Ferseyn, Farasin as well as Fejr whose desdcendants like Amber Satin are extraordinarily beautiful.

A careful check of timelines finds that it was only after Raswan's falling out with Lady Wentworth and WK Kellogg that so much misinformation began to be spread about this particular strain. According to Roger Upton-renowned traveler to the Mid East (brother Peter is the artist and twice president of the AHS), the Menaghy/Muniqui, et.al., was considered by some of the tribes, to be the most beautiful if not most successful of all the strains and there has never been a question of the purity of either Haleb or Ferida (progenitor of the great F lines from Crabbet).

In my experience this line is most renowned not for it's racing ability but it's extraordinary kindness, gentleness and beauty.
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#22 elcibolero

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 10:19 AM

QUOTE(Garianne @ Feb 16 2006, 12:28 AM)
There is a tremendous amount of misinformation about the Muniqui, Menaghy and all the variations on spellings.  Probably one of the greatest of this strain in Crabbet was *Ferda from whom so many incredible horses descend-Farana, Ferseyn, Farasin as well as Fejr whose desdcendants like Amber Satin are extraordinarily beautiful. 

A careful check of timelines finds that it was only after Raswan's falling out with Lady Wentworth and WK Kellogg that so much misinformation began to be spread about this particular strain.  According to  Roger Upton-renowned traveler to the Mid East (brother Peter is the artist and twice president of the AHS), the Menaghy/Muniqui, et.al., was considered  by some of the tribes, to be the most beautiful if not most successful of all the strains and there has never been a question of the purity of either Haleb or Ferida (progenitor of the great F lines from Crabbet). 

In my experience this line is most renowned not for it's racing ability but it's extraordinary kindness, gentleness and beauty.

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I'm not sure regarding date of Raswan's "falling out" but attached is a link to a letter from Carl Schmidt/Raswan to W.K. Brown dated Nov. 11, 1925 while still employed by Kellogg and prior to the 1926 importation from Crabbet (also before he re-named himself after the stallion "Raswan"). It doesn't sound as though Schmidt/Raswan was a particular fan of the Muniqui. Note that there is additional strain information included in this letter.

http://www.wiwfarm.com/CCCRasBro.html

I think its pretty obvious that while many current winners in today's shows are descended from Muniqui ancestors, with very few exceptions the type of horse represented by Haleb is not. Much to our shame.
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#23 Pembroke

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 11:09 AM

QUOTE(Triple h Arabians @ Feb 15 2006, 09:23 PM)
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Absolute shame that this type is not being represented in our MR!

#24 Aequus17

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 11:15 AM

Funny thing I was just saying to myself thank god our breed has improved through the years LOL! One thing for sure we all have different opinions!

#25 EQUUS (CLA)

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 11:40 AM

QUOTE(Pembroke @ Feb 16 2006, 12:09 PM)
Absolute shame that this type is not being represented in our MR!

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I agree! I love the body, substance and riding type represented in that photo... that is a horse that begs to be saddled.

IMO the only way we may ever see that type in the MR is to keep breeding for it and presenting it in the Sport Horse division... eventually it may work its way back to the MR... here's to hoping ;)

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#26 Aequus17

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 11:58 AM

QUOTE(EQUUS (CLA) @ Feb 16 2006, 11:40 AM)
I agree! I love the body, substance and riding type represented in that photo... that is a horse that begs to be saddled.

IMO the only way we may ever see that type in the MR is to keep breeding for it and presenting it in the Sport Horse division... eventually it may work its way back to the MR... here's to hoping ;)

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So am I correct in thinking that you feel this horse represents a top quality arabian? Granted it has some positive qualitys but over all I can't imagine anyone who breeds arabian horses thinking this represents our standard.

#27 Pembroke

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:26 PM

QUOTE(Triple h Arabians @ Feb 15 2006, 09:23 PM)
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Aequus17
So am I correct in thinking that you feel this horse represents a top quality arabian? Granted it has some positive qualitys but over all I can't imagine anyone who breeds arabian horses thinking this represents our standard.

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Yes,
What I see is a well formed individual which does conform to the standard.
He had good confirmation and was a well balanced individual with substance, well sprung ribs, nice heart girth, nice legs, from pics looks like nice hoofs also, neck is well balanced for his size and form ( not over long or too thin), nice head even if it is not extreme, and the tail set though not extreme is good. Also I feel this picture also shows a horse with good hind end and a nice shoulder. Again just my personal thoughts.
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In his 1909-1910 catlog, Davenport says

'*Haleb was 14 hands, 2 inches high, short-backed, with bone large and flat, shoulder of immense power and slant, and hocks long and well formed. Over 200 mares were due to foal to him within a year between Nejd and Aleppo. It was most unusual for a stallion used so widely at stud by the bedouin to be exported from Arabia.'
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I think the last sentence of this paragraph also says alot about this horse. Over 200 mares where due to foal to this stallion at the time of his export, given the time period and the geograpical area that is quite impressive that so many mare owners/beduions would then breed to an inferior stallion, not likely. So if he was considered to be so impresive to the keepers of the Arabian breed back then why is he now considered inferior?

Would love to hear what others find so objective about *Haleb.

#28 Aequus17

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:35 PM

Pembroke, Actually I would like to see more pic's of the horse, judging from this one the horse is down right ugly! Sorry I still think that the ideal arabian horse should look like the standard that Gladys Brown Edwards developed for breeders to use a guide, this photo does not come close in my opionion.

#29 Pembroke

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:48 PM

QUOTE(Aequus17 @ Feb 16 2006, 12:35 PM)
Pembroke, Actually I would like to see more pic's of the horse, judging from this one the horse is down right ugly! Sorry I still think that the ideal arabian horse should look like the standard that Gladys Brown Edwards developed for breeders to use a guide, this photo does not come close in my opionion.

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Aequus17,
I would not say that any of the pictures taken during that time era really show any of these horses really well. Also keep in mind that they did not pose there animals in ways that are now used either.

But another thing to keep in mind when looking at a lot of these older pictures is that these horses show a much stronger resemblence to the diffrent strains, which the one drawing by Gladys Brown Edwards ( which by the way if I understand things correctly has also been altered from its original state to show a more modern Arabian) only depicts a standard based upon what strain? Truely I am not sure which strain it was based upon, would be a neat thing to look into. The point of this topic is to show that there is several types(strains) compared to what might be veiwed as type nowadays. The Arabian is a breed that has many strains ( which some still exist) within it, and should be enjoyed for it rather then penealized.

#30 MPH

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:52 PM

A- what parts are you most disgusted with on this horse? Please don't tell me the head....
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#31 Aequus17

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:57 PM

Pembroke, Well what ever strain produces horses similar to this one in the pic, I would chose to avoid! I do however understand your point about the old photo's hope someone can post some others of the horse?

#32 Aequus17

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 01:03 PM

MPH, Lets just assume its a bad photo!

#33 Jynx

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 01:41 PM

Here's two more of Haleb.
user posted image

user posted image


*El Bulab, a Jilfan Stam_Al_Boulab

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#34 jenswa

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 02:07 PM

We have owned a pure in the MANEGHI S'BYAL stallion for many years, he descends from Ferda. He is oh so fast, a stakes winner and track record setter, and built oh so well! Not to mention friendly and smart. With conformation similar to HALEB, he is pictured on AWH hot topic hip/shoulder thread, where Peter M. kindly critique's his conformation. The Arabian breed has declined for 3 decades as a halter silhouette has become more valued than performance...

#35 elcibolero

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 02:27 PM

QUOTE(Aequus17 @ Feb 16 2006, 12:35 PM)
Pembroke, Actually I would like to see more pic's of the horse, judging from this one the horse is down right ugly! Sorry I still think that the ideal arabian horse should look like the standard that Gladys Brown Edwards developed for breeders to use a guide, this photo does not come close in my opionion.

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Don't just look at GBE's drawing, read what it says. BTW, that drawing once came with the caveat that it was NOT the breed standard but an illustration of a "classical" Arabian. Some of us recall that this is also not the original--the drawing was revised, I believe in the late 70's or early '80's. In any case, Arabians were bred for a long time before GBE was born. I would be very interested in how you would propose to support your claim of "improvement". Improved as the modern English bulldog or the show ring Labrador is an improvement over the original? Neither can perform their original function.

Still, as others have intimated, you cannot compare a century old photo to the professional photo's of horses groomed, shaved & sweated to today's MR requirements. Also, as I pointed out on another thread, photo's don't capture "presence". I can promise you, this horse would be SPECTACULAR in person--and could perform the legendary deeds attributed to the breed.
Cary Gollnick

"I've upped my standards. Now, up yours." -- Pat Paulsen Presidential Campaign Slogan:

"It is the perpetual dread of fear, the fear of fear, that shapes the face of a brave man." Georges Bernanos
"I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind." Eric Hoffer
"The grey mare is the better horse." John Heywood

#36 Aequus17

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 03:12 PM

Ok lets assume GBE's pic was not the standard, are you trying to say the picture of this horse is? Maybe we should define what is standard then,"classic" comes close as far as I'm concerned. And how can you promise this horse is so spectaular in person? I personally feel that we are currently breeding some of the finest arabian horses ever, but here again its simply an opinion.

#37 Pembroke

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 03:28 PM

QUOTE(Aequus17 @ Feb 16 2006, 03:12 PM)
Ok lets assume GBE's pic was not the standard, are you trying to say the picture of this horse is? Maybe we should define what is standard then,"classic" comes close as far as I'm concerned. And how can you promise this horse is so spectaular in person? I personally feel that we are currently breeding some of the finest arabian horses ever, but here again its simply an opinion.

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Aequus17 ,
I can only speak for myself and nobody else. My stand point as far as the picture and GBE's pic /standards is that there was many varying types within traditional Arabian horse breeding, too many in my personal opinion to pin point it down to one standard drawing. As far as the written standard for our breed it often is left up to the one who is reading it to interpert it into what they personally think or feel that it means. That doesn't mean anyone is actually wrong, there just needs to be more awareness to some traditional aspects of the Arabian breed such as the different types of strains within the breed and there basic descriptions of such strains and how this plays out when breeding.


#38 Aequus17

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 04:08 PM

Pembroke, So what your saying is there is not really a standard? Boy that could make a difficult job for our judges.

#39 Pembroke

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 04:26 PM

QUOTE(Aequus17 @ Feb 16 2006, 04:08 PM)
Pembroke, So what your saying is there is not really a standard? Boy that could make a difficult job for our judges.

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No I am not saying that there is no standard, what I am trying to say though is depending on who is reading it will also depend how it is interperted, merely because each us are unique indiviuals who see things in our own ways, and no two people will ever be truely alike.


Perfect case and point are judges, no two judge exactly the same. And of course there is also the argument from some who claim that judges nowadaysdo not judge to the traditional standard, but to a more modern twist to accomadate what is the current trend.

#40 EQUUS (CLA)

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE(Aequus17 @ Feb 16 2006, 12:58 PM)
So am I correct in thinking that you feel this horse represents a top quality arabian? Granted it has some positive qualitys but over all I can't imagine anyone who breeds arabian horses thinking this represents our standard.

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Yes, I do think this individual depicts a quality Arabian. This horse has substance, is geometrically balanced, and is not at all unattractive. Unfortunately the poor horse's face is being distorted by the heavy hands of the handler... any one out there have a better head shot of him?

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