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The Arabian Breed Standard


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#21 elcibolero

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 09:33 AM

QUOTE(Hoogie @ May 9 2006, 01:37 AM) View Post

Quote by Coralie Gordon.

Does anyone have the US standard to share? Sprout tells me she thinks it doesn't have a "suitability for performance" (ie 'saddle horse par excellence") part to it, which is strange, but probably explains a few things.


For decades people have referred to the GBE drawing (actually there is an original version and a revised version--I believe the one included in the 1953 GBE article posted previously is the original) and IAHA descriptive booklet as "the standard". In reality, I don't believe that AHA has an "official" standard--at least not one I've been able to locate. The best I've been able to find is USEF Article 102 (link below).

http://www.usef.org/.../2005/05-AR.pdf
Cary Gollnick

"I've upped my standards. Now, up yours." -- Pat Paulsen Presidential Campaign Slogan:

"It is the perpetual dread of fear, the fear of fear, that shapes the face of a brave man." Georges Bernanos
"I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind." Eric Hoffer
"The grey mare is the better horse." John Heywood

#22 Karen C.

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:03 AM

QUOTE(elcibolero @ May 9 2006, 05:33 AM) View Post

For decades people have referred to the GBE drawing (actually there is an original version and a revised version--I believe the one included in the 1953 GBE article posted previously is the original) and IAHA descriptive booklet as "the standard". In reality, I don't believe that AHA has an "official" standard--at least not one I've been able to locate. The best I've been able to find is USEF Article 102 (link below).

http://www.usef.org/.../2005/05-AR.pdf


There was a thread earlier this year where the "original" GBE 'standard' and the new one (which to me appears to be the GBE picture 'modified' - you will note that the 'newer' one (which I recall was on the pre-merger IAHA website) does not have her initials on the bottom) were superimposed by one of our members who is very handy with Photoshop (or whatever program she used!). I'll try and dig that one up :)

here's the one from the article I attached earlier:

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Here's another GBE drawing from the book "Arabian Horse Breeding" by HH Reese:

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Karen C.

(Please Note: Until I get online Datasource again, please note that unless otherwise noted, all search results are from my old grossly inadequate 2000 CDROM, which only features purebreds registered with AHA through Dec 31 1999. I verify show records using the AHA Members Only site (which *ALL* AHA Members, even us cheapa$$ $20/year members have access to - amazed at how many folks don't know that!!))

I also post search results at the All Breed Pedigreedatabase.

#23 SilverShadow

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:51 AM

IPB Image ya know, its painful everytime I try to post a picture.. the darn things in my personal album, just gotta remember how the heck I am supposed to post it.... **sigh**
raye anne

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there we go...

#24 SilverShadow

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 11:37 AM

I am a bit confused about the whole Gladys Brown Edwards drawings... I did a comparison (above) that had her drawing with the head of the horse facing left. I have grabbed the one with it facing forward as posted (1953 and horse facing forward) by Karen C. and here it is. I should note here that I went back and even nudged the top comparison pictures around a bit, but those legs and body never line up.

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Raye Anne

#25 SilverShadow

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:07 PM

Seeing those Peter Upton Drawings, they remind me of some popular 60's and 70's North American stallions I have seen in old mags. Here is the comparison to AHR pics.
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Raye Anne

#26 AA Wish

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:45 PM

It would be cool if people would post pics of their horses or other horses that they feel fits the breed standard drawings we are discussing. We rarely see horses with this 'look'. Very few of the old ones had this look either.
Is there, in all republics, this inherent, and fatal weakness?....Must a government, of necessity, be too strong for the liberties of its own people, or too weak to maintain its own existence?" Abraham Lincoln

#27 Karen C.

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 01:17 PM

Hmmm how about *Naborr?

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Wish I had a full body pic here of his son *Emaus - I always liked him (although this is just based on photos of course!) I did find this head-shot though

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Since Islam was the model for GBE's National Trophy, I'm just going to include his photo in here as well, although I couldn't find a really good one online (I think I have one in my pix at home somewhere though)

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Karen C.

(Please Note: Until I get online Datasource again, please note that unless otherwise noted, all search results are from my old grossly inadequate 2000 CDROM, which only features purebreds registered with AHA through Dec 31 1999. I verify show records using the AHA Members Only site (which *ALL* AHA Members, even us cheapa$$ $20/year members have access to - amazed at how many folks don't know that!!))

I also post search results at the All Breed Pedigreedatabase.

#28 Kira

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 01:59 PM

I don't have a photo to post, but in my opinion Ga'Zi fits the mold.
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#29 Hoogie

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 04:48 PM

So the GBE picture, and the following, are all US breeders have to guide them as a standard? Note the "long arched neck" part as opposed to "moderately long" in the Australian standard. In my opinionated opinion (LOL) there is nowhere near enough detail... and the drawing kind of encourages breeders to fit a horse into the "box" created by the drawing, which was not, as I understand it, based on a real horse! The exaggerated tail carriage depicted in the GBE drawing probably added to trainers applying ginger as well... the Upton drawing is more realistic for a horse in a relaxed standing position. Where is the movement part? And the part that explains the history of the Arabian and why it was a highly desirable riding horse?
If I was a US citizen, I'd be pushing for a decent standard of excellence, readily available to every member of the breed registry, and one that each and every judge knows by heart!

US Arabian standard:
Comparatively small head, profile of head straight or preferably slightly concave below the
eyes; small muzzle, large nostrils, extended when in action; large, round, expressive, dark
eyes set well apart (glass eyes shall be penalized in Breeding classes); comparatively short
distance between eye and muzzle; deep jowls, wide between the branches; small ears
(smaller in stallions than mares), thin and well shaped, tips curved slightly inward; long
arched neck, set on high and running well back into moderately high withers; long sloping
shoulder well laid over with muscle; ribs well sprung; long, broad forearm; short cannon
bone with large sinew; short back; loins broad and strong; croup comparatively horizontal;
natural high tail carriage. Viewed from rear, tail should be carried straight; hips strong and
round; well muscled thigh and gaskin; straight, sound, flat bone; large joints, strong and well
defined; sloping pasterns of good length; round feet of proportionate size. Height from 14.1
to 15.1 hands, with an occasional individual over or under. Fine coat in varying colors of
bay, chestnut, grey and black. Dark skin, except under white markings. Stallions especially
should have an abundance of natural vitality, animation, spirit, suppleness and balance.

#30 Nasarka

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  • Interests:reading, drawing, some gardening, pedigree research, Arabian horses though I also like all other breeds. I ride english and western, I have shown but pretty much only trail riding lately with a parade here and there to show off my lovely Arabs. I've tried sidesaddle, driving and jumping besides western and hunter pleasure. I never had much exposure with english pleasure and a cut back/park saddle. <br /><br /> I have mainly Polish/Crabbets plus a *Carmargue son and a AM Sea Captain daughter. I like square-built, compact, sound of mind and body horses that are versitile with type. Most of my guys are older (late teens, twenties) but I have a couple coming up I will train myself.

Posted 09 May 2006 - 04:54 PM

I also like the one pic of Raffon.

I also have felt the drawings were a bit unrealistic--space between shoulder and hip for a saddle, neck set a bit too high and giraffe-like, feet too small, head on at least one is very small and short in porportion to the body. In the first red overlayed drawing, facing outward, the body is more shallow, not as deep as the other illustrations.
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Arabians, I believe, most anyone can train or ride.


Pretty is as pretty does!

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#31 elcibolero

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 06:04 PM

QUOTE(Hoogie @ May 9 2006, 04:48 PM) View Post

If I was a US citizen, I'd be pushing for a decent standard of excellence, readily available to every member of the breed registry, and one that each and every judge knows by heart!


LOL. Who would you suggest head that committee? No doubt we have people qualified, but in whose opinion? Do we stack the committee with people who agree with me or with advocates of the Great American Lawn Pony? I vote for a five person committee of consisting of Liz, TOP, Gessepi, and Georgine, with Garianne as Chairperson and you as International Consultant (I'll gladly pay your AHA membership).

Wouldn't it be a grand undertaking though, if it included representatives from ALL disciplines and all of the preservationist and fractionalized groups who have abandoned the MR and mainstream? The meetings would be worth televising.
Cary Gollnick

"I've upped my standards. Now, up yours." -- Pat Paulsen Presidential Campaign Slogan:

"It is the perpetual dread of fear, the fear of fear, that shapes the face of a brave man." Georges Bernanos
"I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind." Eric Hoffer
"The grey mare is the better horse." John Heywood

#32 montana

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE
I always heard Arabs had large round feet. I love seeing the old foundation horses. I was born too late!


They are still out there, my 26 year old has the most perfect big ol' feet, totally sound in every way...OK, so I never got around to breeding her...oops!

As for the rest, if anyone is really good with photoshop, we could always just have 100 people submit their photo of the "perfect" horse and then hit "merge" and see what happens! ;-D
"If you can remain calm when all around you are losing their heads, you obviously don't understand the situation!"

#33 elcibolero

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 07:57 PM

QUOTE(montana @ May 9 2006, 07:48 PM) View Post

They are still out there, my 26 year old has the most perfect big ol' feet, totally sound in every way...OK, so I never got around to breeding her...oops!

As for the rest, if anyone is really good with photoshop, we could always just have 100 people submit their photo of the "perfect" horse and then hit "merge" and see what happens! ;-D


1) Is she a descendant of *Haleb?

2) Can I pick the 100 people who get to submit?
Cary Gollnick

"I've upped my standards. Now, up yours." -- Pat Paulsen Presidential Campaign Slogan:

"It is the perpetual dread of fear, the fear of fear, that shapes the face of a brave man." Georges Bernanos
"I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind." Eric Hoffer
"The grey mare is the better horse." John Heywood

#34 Pembroke

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 08:44 PM

QUOTE(elcibolero @ May 9 2006, 07:57 PM) View Post

1) Is she a descendant of *Haleb?

2) Can I pick the 100 people who get to submit?



I have one mare who is a descendant of *Haleb and she has great hoofs, not tooo dainty and nice and round. But actually all of my mares have nice round hoofs and all of them are descendants of the same import as *Haleb. Now that does not mean that they are perfect and with out flaws, personally I don't believe in perfection, and feel it is really a idea that is subjective to each individuals tastes and what they can live with and what they can't beyond the obvious basic conformation.

I do think having a good breed standard to go by is needed but, if it is narrowed down to specific that it will not leave room for the variences in the different strains, which can still be found within the older bloodlines.And I know I probally sound like a old record ( if anyone still knows what those are!!!) about strains but knowing the differences helps see each horse for its own uniqueness(sp) and not just what is popular at the time.

Personally I would like to see a greater emphasis placed on temperment then on extreme type.

#35 Sprout

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 08:52 PM

I have a photo of a let-down halter horse. Please don't be nasty in critiquing him; he is not mine. Someone asked to see a present day halter champion let down, well, here he is (can't get more 'present' than Scottsdale Champion Stallion). ;)

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Honestly I think he's a very nice horse, whether stood up or let down - he has a fabulous hip, nice short back, well-let down hocks, good angulation of pasterns, a very nicely set neck, well-defined withers. I think he's slightly (and that's perhaps being picky) long in the cannons and is a bit long from eye to muzzle. Keep in mind I've seen the horse (a few times - once in his stall, once in a presentation, and then in the show ring) so that's what I remember specifically about him, not necessarily what's in the photo.

BTW, again, I have an older horse from older bloodlines. She doesn't have great big feet, and never has, although it's improving after one farrier ruined a lot of work we had done with them in the prior 3 years (he wasn't asked to come out again... ;-) )

I personally feel that our standard is pretty sufficient. Yes, the Australian one is excellent, very self-explanatory. I don't think that makes ours in the US bad, though.
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#36 Hoogie

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:19 PM

I think the Oz standard could do with some upgrading too, as Pembroke suggests there was alot of variation within the original desert breds (take a looksie at the photos on page 1).
Scrap the drawings and put in photos showing a variety of DB horses.

What I really would like to see in the US one is more emphasis on the fact that the Arabian is a saddle horse. The ideal Arabian should be the one that a bedouin would be proud to ride.

I have a friend who would like to see showing scrapped altogether - but I still like shows. As I see it, if we can't see a variety of types judged and winning in the ring, then at least we should be choosing the medium type Arabian that shows a balance of type and soundness, rather than the extremes. I think it's a great pity that so many worthy Arabians are "not show horses" just because they are not extreme... the standard does not call for extreme.

I think everyone needs this sort of education - I learn alot just by "chatting" like this. People in all countries have a pre-set idea of what an Arabian should look like - an updated and realistic standard, with a show system that is based on it, would be a great start, IMO.

Elcibolero, ROFLMAO!!! Seriously, I hope something can be done... if not at least we can all try and educate ourselves and become better breeders/judges because of it.

Sprout, I would like to see all halter horses stood up like that (with the legs square, though). They look more 'Arabian' to me in a natural stance, rather than rocked back with the neck and head high. Thanks for the piccie, he looks nice.

#37 TOP

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:26 PM

Sprout,

Do you happen to have a photo of him standing up? I'd like to see his topline standing up to note the relation of his coupling and his back/croup length at each stance.

I'm simply trying to gain a better perspective of things and I'm certainly not bashing the horse.
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Character is like that of the great rivers; silent in its depths and unseen by most eyes. -- Me unless someone thought of it first.

#38 Tariq Azul

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:44 PM

Concerning the old desert breds photos: There were different family types. The preferance of thier owners needs and likes. Many centuries created these versions. Now is it fair to homogynize(sorry,no dictionary handy) all this into one standard? Granted,it is a "pretty" standard,but is it true to the nature of the beast? The tribal cultures could of cared less if a face was dished or straight as long as its expression and "soul" was "hattu". The better horses SURVIVED back then. Life certainly has improved for most of them these days.....its ok for arabs to look different....they are supposed to. TA.
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#39 Sprout

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:49 PM

Yes, I have a few, here:

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And one of him walking, from the front.

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“Life is to be lived. If you have to support yourself, you had bloody well better find some way that is going to be interesting. And you don't do that by sitting around wondering about yourself.” - Katharine Hepburn

#40 TOP

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 11:08 PM

Interesting...

I thought he'd be table top, but he slopes down. He looks a bit long in the back to me and a bit short in the croup. Nothing severe, but if the horse was long coupled it'd cause me concern.

Thanks for posting the pictures Sprout.
Justin K. Rogers

You aren't entitled to what I have earned.

Character is like that of the great rivers; silent in its depths and unseen by most eyes. -- Me unless someone thought of it first.




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